ADRIENNE COLE JOHNSON: Celebrate the hearts, minds, and spirits of Black women in the workplace and beyond.

Today, we welcome trailblazers who are paving the way for Black women to feel supported, empowered, and healthy as they navigate professional and corporate environments.

I'm Adrienne Cole Johnson and this is "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

I'm joined by Shanza Isom and Keonna Knight.

Shanza is the Associate Director of Engaged Transformative Learning at Virginia Commonwealth University, and the founder and owner of Be Well: Self-Care and Holistic Life Balance LLC.

Shanza is also a wellbeing consultant and speaker who specializes in professional development training on topics including worker wellbeing and mindful leadership.

Keonna is the founder and owner of Heal With Keonna, where she offers personalized coaching, leadership trainings, and wellbeing workshops aimed at sparking transformation for Black women and change-makers.

Her journey from being a burnt out classroom teacher to a vibrant CEO has gifted her with profound insights and tools to teach others how to heal and build bold and balanced lives.

Welcome Shanza and Keonna.

KEONNA KNIGHT: Hello.

SHANZA ISOM: Thank you for having me.

JOHNSON: So good to have you all here and I'm so excited about this conversation for so many reasons.

I Wanna start us off with a really simple question, how did you get here?

And in the sense of how did you get here to the place of deep care, community, and connection for Black women in your work?

KNIGHT: Yeah, so my first journey into wellness started, as you shared, I was a burnt out classroom teacher and I had 30 students in East Oakland.

[JOHNSON] Okay.

KNIGHT: And I'm looking around like, "Who's gonna help me take care of myself while I pour into my students and my families?"

And I realized there were not a lot of support systems.

There were not a lot of places that were specifically geared toward pouring into me, a Black woman who had never learned how to take care of herself because I was raised by strong Black women who were like, "I can get it all done."

So I did a yoga teacher training program and that's when I really first created space for myself to actually invest in my wellbeing.

And I saw how it transformed my classroom and my own life.

And that's when I was like, "Oh.

"I need to share this with everyone.

"And specifically, Black women," because I know that so many of us, we feel like there's no space for us.

We're the last on our list.

And we're raised by people who are also the last on their list.

And so, my journey here was me realizing that I didn't wanna continue that generational cycle.

I wanted to be an example to my nieces, and nephews, and other Black women, that we can be free, that we can invest in ourselves, that we can walk boldly in our calling without burning out.

And that when we do that, we are able to not just show up for our community, but show up full and energized.

ISOM: And when you reflect on Black women throughout history and all that have been on our plates and that's expected of us, the roles that we have to manage, I won't even say balance because I don't think we did a good job of balancing them, we were just managing them, and trying to survive, right?

And so, as a Black woman, who was a Black girl, who grew up in the projects, right?

Who grew up with a single mom, with grandma stepping in, granddad stepping in, a second parent, and watching my mom work multiple jobs, watching a lot of women in the community just be present for everybody all day long.

And I always wondered as a kid, and I don't think I had the language for this at the time, but I always wondered at what cost?

Like, how are we... Like, what's gonna happen now, right?

And so when I moved on, you get educated...

I get my degree working in social work, and I've always had an interest in community work.

And so, that's how we met, really just kind of community practice and how do you engage in the community.

And I tend to have people, specifically Black women, and even more so black moms, drawn to me.

And students, my Black students, drawn to me.

And oftentimes, trying to figure out, and I've had the question so many times in my class, like, "Why are you always so chill?

"Why are you not stressed?"

I'm like, "What?

"I've lived that life.

"I've stressed just like anybody else, I'm human."

And I've learned how to prioritize me and what that means for me, and recognizing that that looks different for all of us.

And I can't expect wellbeing and self-care to look the same for everybody, but what I can do is show up for folks and help them reflect on that, and figure that out for themselves.

And so, I think two things come to mind for me.

The first one being just with my own commitment to self, and I'm responsible for me.

And also recognize the importance of community, but I'll come back to that.

But I'm responsible for me, and so being able to know, and I've had to live this and I've had to learn this, and this changes as we grow in life.

44-year-old me, what that looks like now, versus 20-year-old me.

It looks a lot different.

You know, pre-kids looked a lot different.

You know, marriage changes things.

So as we experience life, new positions, losses, what wellbeing looks like and what's needed to be well shifts as our life changes.

And so, for me, I think the commitment to prioritizing knowing what those things are, standing strong in those, not being afraid to set my boundaries and doing so without apology and honestly fearlessly.

And if that is challenged in any way in life, being able to speak my truth and live it because at the end of the day, nobody's gonna do it for me.

As you said, we weren't taught this, right?

It's passed along... We do what we see, right?

I mean, we know that that's how kids learn.

We do what we see.

And so, when you start younger and you teach them that that is not okay to live like that, to not prioritize yourself.

It's not okay to try to do all the things.

We do not have to be super anything.

JOHNSON: Yes, yes.

ISOM: Right?

That is not... We don't have to do that.

Not only do we not have to do that, that's not a good idea, right?

For all these reasons.

And so, I feel that it's my responsibility to pour that into young kids so that we're not waiting until I'm speaking to the 50 year olds who are now trying to figure it out.

after they've lived such a long life.

Because oftentimes, that's the age group that's seeking me out, you know, 40, 50s-- JOHNSON: Right.

And way after burnt out, right.

ISOM: Way after they've burned out.

And so, that's kind of...

I think that's how I've made sense of that, is standing in my truth and then figuring out where my part is in the next generation.

KNIGHT: A lot of us don't feel worthy of wellness because we have been taught that we are not worthy of wellness.

Capitalism has continued us moving.

And you think about intersectionality, being a Black woman, being both Black and a woman, we are being told that we have to show up.

That it doesn't matter if you're tired, we learn to keep going.

I often tell people, "What's the story that you tell yourself "that allow you to say no to yourself?"

[JOHNSON] Yeah.

KNIGHT: Is it that "I have to keep going?"

Is it that "there's no room for me?"

Is it that "I have to make sure I take care "of everyone else first?

"What is that story for you?"

And then I want you to think about "what's the impact of that story?"

Because I know so many Black women who have died at young ages, who have been hospitalized, who have experienced having to be admitted to mental health hospitals because they're like, "We can't... "I can't do this anymore."

[JOHNSON] Yes.

KNIGHT: There's a very high extreme of where it can take us, and there's also the daily of just exhaustion.

[JOHNSON] Yeah.

Anxiety, overwhelm.

KNIGHT: Anxiety, overwhelm, depression.

And so, it's the systemic things that are happening, And it's also the internalized oppression that we don't feel worthy.

And I love going into community spaces because then it feels practical to them.

They hear a lot of people saying, "Child, take care of yourself, set boundaries."

And then they looking at me like, "How?

"Okay, what does that look like?"

JOHNSON: Step by step, right.

KNIGHT: Right.

"All right, let's start today."

When someone comes into your face and they ask you something you know you don't have capacity to do, I want you to just practice saying no.

It's gonna be uncomfortable, you gonna feel guilty, you gonna feel a little selfish.

Let's sit with that discomfort.

And you told me you don't wanna live like this anymore.

And not just for yourself, but for the people who are connected to you.

And so, they're gonna get the best version of you actually when you say no.

[JOHNSON] That's right.

KNIGHT: And now what are you gonna say yes to?

"Child, I wanna go for a walk."

You go for that walk.

If that's not accessible to you, what can you do for yourself?

Even if it's just 10 minutes of silence.

JOHNSON: I feel like I'm getting free sessions from you all sitting on the stage, so thank you.

ISOM: We're all getting free-- KNIGHT: Thank you.

ISOM: Yeah.

JOHNSON: But I want to talk more about you all's businesses, what you do, and some of the work.

If someone's like, "Well, what does this look like?"

You know?

So Shanza with Be Well and then Keonna with Heal With Keonna, what does this passion work look like for you?

I think you all both do coaching, leadership development, sounds like even with corporations and organizations.

So what does that look like?

What does your work look like with Black women in a tangible way?

[KNIGHT]: I think one thing that is really...

So my background is in therapy, yoga, and then also personal experience.

And so, I think so often, I work specifically with Black women and change-makers because I know what it feels like when everybody is looking to you for answers and you're the one with the tools, so you're supposed to be the one all together.

And yet, there are things happening internally and you're struggling, and you're like, "I need someone to hold my hand.

"I need someone to hold me accountable."

[JOHNSON] Yes.

KNIGHT: "I need someone to remind me to take care of myself."

And so my coaching is like... My big thing is like "Saying goodbye to burnout and hello to putting yourself first."

And so often, the idea of putting yourself first feels like, "Ooh, am I being selfish?"

I wanna be clear that I teach "Us First versus Them First."

So "Us First" means me and y'all, us.

So that means I have to take care of me and I'm taking care of y'all.

'Cause we also center a collectivist approach, that it's not just me taking care of me.

Because if I'm just taking care of me, I'm also connected to so many other people.

"Us First."

But so often people have a "Them First."

"I have a deep calling on my life, "and so I wanna make sure that I show up..." We are willing to be martyrs.

I've had a client say, "I wanna make sure that my team is well, I can be last."

That that's okay... That that's okay in our minds.

And so, I'm the person that comes in and say "Mm mm, no."

And my work is specifically starting exactly where you are.

So I wanna see your calendar, tell me how you start your day to how you finish your day.

I wanna know those stories.

And what's the history?

Now, the work that I do with corporations and organizations, I work with several organizations within the Greater Richmond region, like really supporting them in "how are we treating our team members like real people?"

[JOHNSON] Yes.

KNIGHT: "How are we humanizing ourselves as leaders?"

Recognizing that I have needs, I have feelings, and so does everyone else in this space.

And then also, me just coming in and offering one session on wellness is not enough.

Are we making sure that people are paid?

Are we making sure that people know the resources that they have related to mental well-being?

And then also, is there a culture here where people feel safe enough to share when they need something?

When they need help?

[JOHNSON]: Yes.

KNIGHT: Are the leaders the ones holding all the weight of everyone?

Is there support?

Is there advocacy?

Is there trust here?

And so, my work is culture transformation.

And then, I'm a teacher, so I want y'all to have the tools, okay?

So you have the information, you know, "Okay, we wanna move different, but how do we do that?"

So that's when I come in with tool-based...

I don't do PowerPoints because we sick of PowerPoints.

Tool-based and community dialogue-based conversations around how do we move things.

And so, that's my work.

[JOHNSON]: Love that.

ISOM: Part of my business... And I do a lot of similar things.

I work individually, although I have to say I prefer facilitating.

And so, I do offer one-on-one.

I'm very selective on when I do that.

But I, oftentimes, am keynote speaking and facilitating workshops, creating systems within organizations around all of the concepts that we just talked about.

I won't repeat all of them 'cause they're very similar.

But one of the things that I truly enjoy doing is going in and helping organizations create, right?

We recognize that this is... We recognize that we're struggling, right?

And the same thing with individuals.

If you don't realize it's an issue, it's hard to... You're not gonna make movement.

But when you have an organization saying, "I know that this is a problem.

We have some of our people saying that... That they're struggling, that they're burning... That this is too much, you know?

And we don't know what to do at this point, but we need help."

And if people can ask for help, so much is possible.

JOHNSON: Yes.

ISOM: And so, I think with my organization, really just trying to step in wherever the need is because I like doing all of it.

What I appreciate, and this is self-care for me, this is life balance for me 'cause we're gonna talk about...

It may come up naturally.

I don't believe in the concept of work-life balance.

It's life balance because work is no more important than any other part of life, so I don't see...

But that's...

I won't go down that path right now.

JOHNSON: We got you.

ISOM: But this is... For me, I find that organizations are often trying to figure out this balance, right?

There is work that has to be done.

[JOHNSON]: Right.

ISOM: And that's the reality.

[JOHNSON] Right.

ISOM: There's work that has to be done.

How do we do so in a way where we're not losing people for a variety of reasons?

Overwork, not being in safe spaces.

We may get to some of this with how systemic racism shows up in spaces and what that looks like day-to-day for people and the impact and the toll that it has on not only worker wellbeing, but when people don't feel safe in spaces, it impacts...

It impacts your productivity.

[JOHNSON]: Yes.

ISOM: I mean, let's just be honest, right?

And so, when you're able to name those and claim tho... And own the mess that is in your house-- [JOHNSON]: Yes.

ISOM: Then you can figure it out.

I mean, you figure it out.

[JOHNSON]: You can have a different outcome.

ISOM: You can have a different outcome when you're willing to own and have a different conversation, and recognize your part in it.

And so I love going into organizations and doing that sort of work.

And even just naming it on a larger scale.

So I do a lot of keynote speaking because I can reach broader audiences-- [JOHNSON]: And get people thinking about-- ISOM: And so, I may not be the one in that moment to help you make your plan, but I will help you realize that you need to figure something out.

[JOHNSON]: That's right.

ISOM: And you need to go find somebody who's gonna help you make this plan.

And that's really exciting for me.

JOHNSON: And really naming that.

Things that happen in the workplace, workplace dynamics, microaggressions, just general systemic racism that affect Black women in professional settings.

How do those play out?

For someone who may be watching that isn't familiar, what does that look and play out for...

In a way for Black women when we're talking about those different dynamics?

ISOM: I would love to give you one example that just came up last week.

JOHNSON: Sure.

ISOM: A former student called me and asked me... She actually sent me an email and asked if she could call me.

And she didn't have my number 'cause I don't typically give my students my numbers.

But I could sense that it was urgent, and I said, "Yeah."

She's like, "I really need you to walk me through this."

"I'm feeling some type of way "but maybe it's just me."

And that's the first thing for us.

It feels like it's...

It's like we're overreacting to something, that we're being super sensitive, 'cause that's the story that's been told to us, right?

That "It's not always about race, stop."

It's like, "Hmm, okay.

"Maybe it's not always, but it often is," and we need to name that.

She said, "I wanted to make sure "this isn't about me 'cause I'm feeling "some type of way."

And so, I called her, and it's interesting that I have braids today because it's around hair, and she was going to be applying for, I guess, a promotion at her job, internal position.

And she said her supervisor asked her... And I'm jumping to the end, to the issue, basically.

The supervisor asked her, "Are you gonna wear your hair "like that for the interview?"

And she said, "I felt some type of way about that.

"Is that just me?

"Is she looking out for me?"

And I said, "No, you should feel "some type of way about that.

"Let's think about why you feel "some type of way.

"And what did you say in the moment, right?

"What's meant by that comment?"

She's like, "Well, I didn't know what to say."

Younger girl-- [JOHNSON]: It's her supervisor too.

That's a different dynamic.

ISOM: It's a different dynamic.

It's her supervisor.

Somebody that she actually... She looks up to, and they have a good relationship.

And so, you assume good intent, right?

And so, that's what her... She's like, "I'm assuming good intent here, "but it doesn't feel right.

"Something... "I just felt kind of... "It didn't feel good."

And she said, "Is it just me?"

"No, it's not just you."

And that is a prime example af a microaggression, right?

Because... And so, I asked her what she said in that moment.

She said she didn't say anything.

And she was like, "What would you have said?"

"Oh, I mean my first question would be like, ""Well, why wouldn't I?"

[JOHNSON]: I'm curious about your... ISOM: "Why wouldn't I?

"Tell me what what your meaning is behind... "What do you mean by that?"

[JOHNSON]: Yes.

ISOM: Why are you asking that?

[JOHNSON]: Yeah.

ISOM: Or, "Of course, I was.

"Why would you ask that?"

And so, that sort of thing.

She's like, "Well, I didn't wanna..." Again, we don't wanna say anything because, oftentimes, we fear the impact of that, or what that means, or that it will be taken lightly, which is a microaggression in and of itself, right?

Not believing a person's experience, right?

[JOHNSON]: That's right.

ISOM: Or minimizing the experience, and like, "No, that's just... "It wasn't meant that way."

Or "It wasn't..." Like, "Okay, well, "that very much is how it came across."

JOHNSON: Right.

KNIGHT: There are so many words that are like buzzwords almost, that what does that look like?

So when I think about racism, I think about the fact that there's dehumanization.

Black women are not being treated like humans in the workplace.

What does that look like?

And then going...

I'm gonna go into the advocacy as well.

What does that look like?

You thinking, "Because I am so good at my job, "I can take on more than other people.

"Not only you adding more things to my plate, "but you not taking me seriously "or hearing me when I express "a need for help.

"You not honoring my feelings "when I am expressing to you "or calling me emotional or aggressive."

The ways that we dehumanize black women, and then also, we then start to question ourselves.

"Is it me?"

Because then there are all these people in agreement with this story, that you are aggressive, you are emotional, you are these things.

That is racism.

That we are all agreeing to dehumanize this Black woman in this space.

And to isolate her and make her feel that it's her problem.

And so, when we talk about advocacy, it's us, one, recognizing that we have to be our own advocates in a lot of spaces, and we need community support as well, 'cause we need a sister friend or a person that we can reach out to say, "Hey, I know I'm not crazy."

JOHNSON: Right.

ISOM: Right.

Give you permission-- KNIGHT: Can you please-- ISOM: Yes, you can respond-- KNIGHT: Make sure?

That's important.

ISOM: That's right.

KNIGHT: And we need to know that we are powerful.

And as you said, knowing our history and knowing who we are, there are so many spaces that we go into that will try to trick us into questioning ourselves and our value, in believing the truth that we are not human.

Dehumanizing, we are not human.

That we don't deserve the help, that we don't deserve support, that we don't deserve to be seen and safe.

And so, us going into the space, before you even get into that job, maybe you already there...

Sorry, sis, but I'm gonna come to you.

But if you about to get into the job, I wanna understand "How will you treat me "like a human in this role?"

And they li... People like to say a lot of real nice words.

"Oh, we are gonna do this."

How will I hold you accountable if I don't feel I'm receiving that?

What are the boundaries I need to set for myself to make sure, whether it's when I respond to emails...

But also when I'm in spaces with other people.

Maybe I have other people in the space where I'm like, "I'm not even gonna speak up.

"You got me?"

You need people in the space who are also gonna advocate for you.

How do I create community here so I know that while I'm advocating for myself, I also know that there are gonna be other people who are gonna be on my side?

And if you are that only person, 'cause there are a lot of Black women at the top who feel like they're the only person, they're always having to speak up, you always the one, that should be a job in itself.

JOHNSON: Mmm, mmm, mm.

ISOM: Let's just be honest.

There's a fear for a lot of people of losing their job or being...

This is for promotion.

It's like, "Well, if I say something, "maybe I won't get promoted," right?

And so, I typically, then, have conversations about values.

That's aside from the fear is real, you know?

That feeling is real.

And so, how do we address that?

And recognizing that for some of that, it's so much bigger than that one supervisor, it's so much bigger than that one comment, right?

That this is a lot bigger than all of that.

And so, how do we... How do we create changes at this larger level, right?

Those one-on-one things during the day are gonna happen and we need to know how to respond to those because that's not okay.

And they exist within a system that has perpetuated and allowed these sort of things, and allowed them to be nor...

They're normalized.

They're so normal, and this is where it impacts our mental health, right?

And increases anxiety because now, we have anxiety on who's gonna say what, "Can I say something?"

And then, we... Our minds spin, that's what they do, right?

Our brains will now create stories.

"Well, if I say this, what will happen?

"What will..." And then, there's an anxiety that Black women carry that other people don't because we're questioning, and we have to find spaces to break that cycle.

This is where I can step in to break this one right here.

And that's not something that we can do by ourselves, even though, day to day, I'm doing a little bit.

[JOHNSON]: Yes.

ISOM: In my space.

[JOHNSON]: Yes, ISOM: I'm doing a little bit by having conversations with other women to figure out how they can do it in their space.

But it takes so much more than that.

[JOHNSON]: Yes.

ISOM: It takes these conversations, it takes owning this.

But outside of this space too, how are we having these conversations in the workplace?

JOHNSON: Yes.

I'd love to hear from you all just about really concrete soul and self-care practices that you all do, whether in the moment to ease things or just maybe something that you do on a more regular basis.

If anyone is looking for just tips and strategies, what does that look like?

KNIGHT: Child, yes, okay?

So self-care is such a huge piece of me being able to do this work.

Because like you said, there has to be someone talking to leadership and creating these conversations about systems change.

Well, that's my work.

[JOHNSON] Yes.

KNIGHT: So I have to make sure that I'm resourced.

[JOHNSON]: Yes.

That's right.

KNIGHT: And so, for me, a huge piece of that is spirituality.

Every morning, I have quiet time, where I spend time with God and I ask to be resourced.

I recognize that I cannot do this on my own strength.

I cannot and I will not.

And so, I recognize that I've been called to do this work, and so I spend time in the Word.

That fills me up.

Nature is my safe place.

And so, me being in nature every day, I go for my walk every day.

You'll find me on T. Pott Bridge every day.

Being by water, being amongst trees.

Another really, really crucial part is drinking water.

And I know that seems really simple, but you gonna see-- [JOHNSON]: We have to be reminded, right?

KNIGHT: Because the thing that so often, we go straight to deep healing but I tell people, "So let's start with the basics.

"Did you eat food, breakfast, lunch, dinner?

"Even if breakfast is just a smoothie, "are you eating?"

Another thing that I think so often Black women feel fear around is medication.

They're just like, "I can't do it."

I will shamelessly say when I experienced deep...

Literally diagnosed with severe anxiety as a person who's been trained as a therapist, "Please and thank you."

I had the medication sitting in my room for a whole week.

Didn't wanna take it because "Uh uh, not me.

"I can't be the one who needs medication."

I started taking that medication, made a difference for me.

That is my self-care.

I am willing to receive help.

JOHNSON: Yes.

KNIGHT: And so, that's not only the things that I do, but the help that I receive.

JOHNSON: Yes.

KNIGHT: I am a coach, but I have a coach and I have a therapist.

Anybody else wanna be on my care team?

Massage therapist?

Have a care team.

JOHNSON: That's right.

You touched on all of it.

Anything you wanna add to that?

ISOM: Yeah, I mean, so one of the things that I will add, and I just echo so much of that, and I want to be really clear when I say that when I think about self care, the reminder that it is and will be different for each of us.

And so, we can throw out all the things that work for us and recognize in that some people may need things differently.

I'm a mindfulness teacher and so I teach meditation.

I have people that say "I can't meditate."

"Okay, well how have you done it "in the past?"

[JOHNSON]: That's right.

ISOM: "Because meditation can look different."

Meditation and mindfulness...

Meditation is a form of mindfulness.

But when you think about being mindful, it is just being present-- [JOHNSON]: That's right.

ISOM: In the moment, and letting go of judgment.

[JOHNSON]: Yes.

I wanna thank you all so much for this conversation.

We could sit for hours, and hours, but-- ISOM: We really could.

JOHNSON: Not just for today but thank you all for joining us today.

KNIGHT: Yeah, thank you.

ISOM: Thank you for having me, and this is such a needed conversation on a regular basis, so I appreciate what you're doing.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

KNIGHT: Thank you.

(soft music) JOHNSON: Today we turn our focus to a critical issue, the voices and mental wellbeing of Black youth.

Our guests will bring enlightenment to the experiences, challenges, and triumphs faced by Black youth as they navigate systems in our communities.

I'm Adrienne Cole Johnson and this is "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

I'm joined by Angela Patton and Brennan Johnson.

Angela is CEO of Girls For A Change, a nonprofit that prepares Black girls for the world and the world for Black girls.

Her TEDtalk showcasing a father-daughter dance for incarcerated dads and their At Promise Daughters has garnered over one million views and propelled her work into the spotlight, earning her features on ABC World News, Inside Edition, and NPR, as well as invitations to speak nationwide at corporations, conferences, and educational institutions.

Brennan Johnson is a high achieving student athlete at Highland Springs High School, where he excels on the football field and in the classroom.

Brennan maintains a 3.8 GPA in the Advanced College Academy for Business.

And upon completing his coursework, will earn an associate's degree in business.

Beyond academic and athletic pursuits, Brennan is an active member of the Becoming Kings Male Mentor Group, which focuses on developing self-advocacy skills, engaging in community service projects, and fostering peer relationships among African-American males with similar interests.

Welcome, Angela and Brennan.

Thank you all for being here today.

ANGELA PATTON: Greetings.

JOHNSON: Yes, and so as I'm listening to you all's bios and just knowing your body of work, I'm just so grateful to have you all here for this conversation about Black youth and their wellbeing.

And the first question will be a really simple one, and Brennan, I'd love to to kick it off with you, but what are our youth saying?

So when you think about your peers and your friends, what's on people's minds when they're talking...

When we're talking about mental health and wellbeing?

BRENNAN JOHNSON: When talking about mental health and wellbeing, I think it's really overlooked, really... Me being an athlete and me being a African American male in society, it's really overlooked on how the perception of black individuals, or African American individuals, how we are seen and how we...

I would say how we're... Like, how the perception of us is.

Basically, we're taught to be strong and just to be tough, and a type of thing, like, "You can't cry" and different things like that.

So it's really like the mentality of a... A tough mentality.

You have really no room to be soft in a way.

That's the word that's used, I would say.

So really, that's really how I think we are seen and how the mental aspect of things are.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

I see you nodding your head too.

What would you add on there from your perspective as you work with Black girls too?

PATTON: Yes, greetings again.

I work with Black girls, I'm often in a space to ask them the same question.

"What are you feeling?

"What are you hearing from your peers?

Both males and females or however they identify.

And what I am fortunate to actually be able to hear from the girls is that things have not really changed.

Even though we have had marches, we have social media, we have a lot of individuals who say they wanna be their allies or their advocates, when a situation may happen, it could be an experience where they're not feeling heard, truly seen, and they're not being asked "What do they need?"

They feel that a lot of times, the adults around them tell them how they're going to serve.

And so, I'm often in a position where I'm trying to make sure, at Girls For A Change, that we co-create experiences and the program curriculum with young people because they still are feeling as though we are not paying attention to their voices and their unmet needs.

JOHNSON: That's right.

And you all both just kind of talk about just having those safe spaces, right?

To just be.

I'd love for you to share a little bit more about what is Girls For A Change?

If someone knows nothing about the organization.

It's a hard question to ask because I know so much about it.

But share what you all do and how you all really hold space for Black girls.

PATTON: Yes.

Well, thank you for asking that question.

It's actually my favorite because I think the mission says it.

As we are preparing Black girls for the world, that simply means that we are making sure they are equipped with skills, that they are equipped with resources, that they are equipped with a support system, and that they're ready for the world.

They're ready for what's next for them, however they identify it, right?

And Girls For A Change is just that open door opportunity where they can see themselves with us on a continuum basis, because we start as early as elementary school and we work with the girls until their senior year.

But also, we work with our alum, and I tell people, "I really work with them as long as it takes."

Because once they complete their high school year, then they kinda jump into young womanhood.

[JOHNSON]: That's right.

PATTON: And that's a whole new challenge for them.

[JOHNSON]: That's right.

PATTON: So we really wanna continue to not only remain a safe space, but a brave space.

[JOHNSON]: That's right.

PATTON: Right?

When they come into Girls For A Change, our girls now feel like they can speak up.

[JOHNSON]: Yes.

PATTON: And they can stand on their own.

And then, the... Twofold to the mission of preparing the world for Black girls is how we partner with community, right?

Although our program hones into advancing Black girls, we are clear that we need the world to see them, we need the world to show up for them, and we need the world to change their narrative and perspectives of them.

So how we partner is to help all of us grow and lean into how we can uplift Black girls and opportunities.

JOHNSON: I love it, I love it.

And thank you for sharing that.

And Brennan, I'm thinking about...

I think you shared you're in Becoming Kings.

B. JOHNSON: Yes, of course.

A. JOHNSON: Talk about Becoming Kings.

And once you talk about what it is, I'm curious about what made you seek out a space that you felt comfortable to be yourself.

So what made you join?

But before that, tell us what Becoming Kings is all about.

B. JOHNSON: Becoming Kings is really a family, a brotherhood, of just like mainly changing the perception of African-American men in the world.

So some people, I would say, see us as a negative thing to society, but it's really more than that.

We get a lot of chances and experiences in the real world.

So we have been to different law firms, we've been to Dominion Energy, the corporation, just going out, and venturing, and seeing what the world is actually.

When you're in the program, it really shapes you for the real world.

There's great mentors around.

You can actually sit there and have a conversation with people that were in your shoes at one point, so it really gives you the opportunity to really understand where you're coming from and who you are, and how to handle different problems in society and different things like that.

So really, I would say it's a safe space for any type of person, really.

And it's just a place where you can just talk and just express who you are as a person.

Yeah.

A. JOHNSON: What made you join?

What was important about... What about the values of Becoming to Kings led you to join and to be so active?

B. JOHNSON: So at first, I wasn't...

I was really hesitant.

I'm like, "Mentoring group?"

I mean, "I got my father, "that's really my mentor."

But it was really deeper than that.

It was about spending time around people who had the same mindset as me, people who needed to experience different things, like I was a person that needed to experience different things.

For me it's just football, football, football.

But I mean, Becoming Kings allowed me to experience different aspects of the world, you know?

And the mentoring aspect of it, I just needed to see people outside of my family, like my father, my uncles, and different things like that.

I needed to see what experiences they had.

'Cause, I mean, my dad hasn't experienced everything in life but people, like the mentors and different things like we had, they have experienced the things.

So it was good to really talk to people and really understand different things of that nature, you know?

[Adrienne] Yeah.

B. JOHNSON: Yeah.

A. JOHNSON: And I think you both have mentioned just being in community, right?

And so, when I think about Becoming Kings, Girls For A Change, you're in community with others, you're kind of broadening your network, and it is this safe and brave space, right?

What kinds of feelings or challenges have you noticed with your peers in general?

Things that might be affecting your friends when you're thinking about race, when you're thinking about mental wellness, just some of those experiences.

What have you noticed?

B. JOHNSON: Really, what I've noticed, I would say, is like, really, we're very divided, I would say.

So, I mean, you'll have one race here, you have one race here, you have one race...

So everybody's divided, it's not really mixed in or anything like that.

And basically, one race will see another race as...

I wouldn't say weird, but they really don't connect, you know?

So I mean, I feel like if there was more opportunities for us to connect, it would be better, you know?

Really to understand there was a lot in the past that really shaped how it is now, so, I mean, that's why it's like that and I understand why it's like that.

But we would need to bring the community together so people can see eye to eye.

We would need different programs set up, like a program like Becoming Kings, to expand out and really understand both sides of everything.

So it's really things like that.

A. JOHNSON: What about you, Sister Angela, with some of your work in Girls For A Change, experiences that they're having, challenges that are often brought to you, as a confidant?

PATTON: Yes.

Well, I first wanna just give kudos to this brother here about his awareness.

>>: yes.

Oh my goodness.

PATTON: And how you are already solution oriented.

>>: Yes.

PATTON: And that's just gives me chills-- A. JOHNSON: Yes.

PATTON: And joy.

A. JOHNSON: Yes.

PATTON: Because that means that we gonna be all right.

B. JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am.

A. JOHNSON: Yes, we will.

PATTON: So thank you.

B. JOHNSON: Of course, yes ma'am.

PATTON: Thank you for that.

That's right.

And so, the challenges that I face, just as a Black woman who is the founder of a unapologetic Black girl program is where I would start.

It is quick for someone to say I can't do that.

Now, when there is a program for young Black men, a lot of times they may not face that because they quickly go to the "Black men need something "because of violence, "because of drugs."

And how they stereotype brothers that are Black and of other... Of color.

And so, when you work with Black girls, it's more like, "Well, if she just won't be so fast," right?

"She's a troublemaker.

"She need to act like a lady," and that would be the solution for her, right?

>>: I see.

PATTON: Not really a program, you know?

Not really something outside of dance, and putting on makeup, and being polished, right?

A. JOHNSON: Yeah, it requires an internal change on that girl.

PATTON: Yes, yes.

That's her responsibility, or she should have just known better 'cause her mother was supposed to have the same training.

And so... And type of upbringing.

And so, I will get it sometimes, just as much as the girls would get it.

Where our girls seem to have some challenges though, it's still with colorism amongst themselves.

Our girls still are facing this colorism historical bondage of who's better because of the texture of their hair, the features on their face, the skin complexion.

And so, this has still trickled down into other communities where they see the girls the same.

So these two issues is around the expectation of a Black girl, and then who's a pretty Black girl, right?

That's where we are right now, still, which is two...

It's very hard.

A. JOHNSON: Wow.

We could go down a whole path with what both of you all said.

Do you all think the challenges...

I guess I know the answer but I wanna hear from you on it.

The challenges are different for, say, non-Black youth and their experiences?

>>: Yeah, definitely.

A. JOHNSON: Share a little bit more.

B. JOHNSON: Like I said, the perception.

The perception is different.

The things we have went through in the past, they lead up to what it is now.

So it's like the way we're seen and different things like that, it's definitely different.

And I mean, other races, I feel like they could get away with different things, and when it comes to us it's like "Nah," just because of the past, and what is seen, and the perception people have on us.

And not all the times that it's true.

So it's like, yeah.

A. JOHNSON: We're talking about youth, but you can't think about youth without thinking about parents and adults, right?

I keep leaning to you, Brennan.

I'll go to Sister Angela quickly, but you'll answer it too.

You work with young people and that's a special place to be.

>>Yes.

A. JOHNSON: So you get to hear the conversations that mom and dad might not hear.

They might not be comfortable talking to auntie or grandma, but you hear it in a really raw sense.

What would you say to a parent or an adult who's watching that wants to connect with the young person a bit more?

Especially understanding some of the wellness and mental health challenges that may be coming up.

What would you say to an adult-- PATTON: Yes.

>>: That wants to connect?

PATTON: Oh, so many things.

So what I'm often telling my parents is that we cannot just speak about a village, we have to act upon the village.

Meaning that it's very easy for us but when you get just caught up, you try to do it all alone.

And so, I highly recommend finding support systems, which are programs, making sure that you seek therapy for your children because it works and it's necessary, and it is a tool that can save your life.

>>: Yes.

PATTON: And then, I also wanna make sure that they become active listeners.

>>: Yes.

PATTON: You know?

I know that my own daughter had a situation where she asked for a therapist, right?

And I'm the mother with the program and I've been working with girls for 20 years, but I had to step back and say, "Whatever she needs," because sometimes you are not even enough.

>>: That's right.

PATTON: Right?

And now, when she may have some challenge, I'll tell her from a mother's perspective, but then I'll also say, "Also, talk to your therapist."

A. JOHNSON: Brennan, what would you say to adults?

I mean, 'cause you've got coaches, teachers, mentors.

>>: Yeah.

A. JOHNSON: What would you say to adults that want to connect a bit more with the youth that may be having some challenges with their wellness?

B. JOHNSON: Just find something that the child or kid relates to, you know?

so for me, it's football, right?

So I have great male mentors at the Highland Springs High School, in the football aspect of things and teachers and things like that.

So what my teachers do... Shout out to Ms. Fuja, she's my business teacher.

>>: Awesome.

B, JOHNSON: She's a great teacher.

She knows how to relate to the kids.

She's very interactive with us and different things like that.

So she's really more than a teacher.

She's...

I wouldn't say she's a friend, but she's like... That's family, you know?

You look at somebody and like, that's family.

So basically, find something that a kid relates to.

That's really key to everything.

Once you find that thing, it's like, oh yeah.

You're gonna be able to lock in with them.

You're gonna be able to relate to everything.

You'll become a person that they can just reach out to and just talk to all the time, so it's...

I'm telling you, that's... Once you find that, you feel me?

Like, yeah.

>>: Yeah.

Connect, right?

B. JOHNSON: Yes, ma'am.

A. JOHNSON: You have to connect.

Not talk at, but talk with.

And again, back to being in community.

I love that.

B. JOHNSON: Yes ma'am.

A. JOHNSON: What things have you noticed... Across districts and schools, what things have you noticed that schools are doing that's been helpful for youth, for girls?

PATTON: Partnering with us.

The way that it makes it easy for us all is communication.

>>: Yeah.

PATTON: If we are consistent and we have open communication, and we are aligned on our goals, most likely our partnership in the school is going to be successful.

And you see that in the girls, right?

It all just...

It goes right back.

When I see the girls thrive, then that's because the building blocks of what it took for all of us to do our part.

And my first, I think, goal is to create this trusting environment for young girls, and that's what I share with my partners in the school.

We wanna remove ourselves from the telling, to the asking, to the more listening and trying to be creative, and allowing the girls to feel like they have voice and choice.

And so, when I can get a school on board, and that's usually removing ourselves out of the situation, we do pretty well.

A. JOHNSON: Absolutely.

Wow, and you touch on a bit just about environment, right?

Which could be your neighborhood, it could be your family, could be your immediate community, or just experiences that you have.

How does it impact how you feel about yourself as a Black youth?

B. JOHNSON: I wanna shout out to my parents.

PATTON: Yes.

B. JOHNSON: They do very good job.

We live in a very nice development and home and stuff like that.

But I think it's really key to go out and experience...

Experience different living situations, different environments, and stuff like that, so you can really understand the way people think and the way people feel about different things.

So I think my parents do a great job on doing that.

And also, the friends I have, everybody's not from a nice development, a nice neighborhood, and stuff like that.

So going out and experiencing what people have to deal with, I mean, good or bad, is very important, I feel.

Different things like that.

>>: Absolutely.

ISOM:That's great.

A. JOHNSON: I wanna wrap us with this thought.

We did it earlier for adults.

So I said, "What would you say to an adult or a parent watching?"

But I wanna bring it back to our youth, and I'll start with you Angela.

What would you say to a youth who's watching this show?

Maybe having some struggles with their mental health or their wellness, whether it's long-term or just in this moment, what would you say to them?

What tips or just what would you share?

PATTON: Yes, I... Oh, you always ask me these questions where I have a laundry list.

>>: You're here for it.

PATTON: But a few things that I would share that I feel like are the most important, the key, is to make sure that you are your greatest ambassador, and that means you have to take care of yourself.

And if you know you do not have the tools and the resources, find them.

Because one of the things that I am really excited about for young people today is that there's so many people out here that are prepared to support them.

When I was growing up, mental health was a taboo.

I was told that "I am your mental health therapist."

"I am the person that you need."

And just because our family did have these amazing family circles, we had a village, sometimes we really just needed that professional to help someone in the family.

And I wish that some of my own family members who suffered more, they had those resources, but it just wasn't something that was done in the Black community.

>>: That's right.

PATTON: And so now I say, take full advantage of that.

Remove the stigmas because they're just not true.

That's why they're stigmas.

But what is true and what does help is seeking help.

And then, the second thing I would say, try something new, right?

That's another way of being your greatest ambassador is step outside of your comfort zone, even if it's just trying a new dish.

There is more than Popeye's and Chick-fil-A.

>>: Yes.

PATTON: Trying something new.

A. JOHNSON: It is.

Try to meet someone different from you, where you may feel like, "I only am comfortable with this type of Black person," or "I'm not comfortable with white people at all."

Step outside of just who you're having conversations with that would broaden your horizon and know that you may teach someone else something too.

>>: That's right.

PATTON: You know, so those are my two, but I do have a laundry list.

So if you come to Girls For Change, you'll know more.

>>: Yes.

PATTON: But I think those two would be an amazing start.

A. JOHNSON: Yes, I love that.

Thank you, both.

Really grateful to have you all here.

B. JOHNSON: Thank you, I appreciate it.

This is a great opportunity.

Yes ma'am.

A. JOHNSON: Awesome.

Thank you.

PATTON: Thank you for having me.

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