>>I'm Adrienne Cole Johnson, and this is "Racism: Challenging Perceptions," a series that explores the issues of systemic racism in our communities.

We are here now to discuss how families and educators look for opportunities to create more equitable learning experiences and environments for Black children.

We'll take a deep dive into the evolution of Black mothering, and as we explore the impact of issues facing mothers in the 21st century, we will examine the decisions that Black mothers make, beginning with their maternal health and continuing throughout their parenting experiences.

(gentle uplifting music) >>Production funding for "Racism: Challenging Perceptions," is provided by Viewers Like You.

Thank you.

(gentle upbeat music) >>We're on location at Oakwood Arts in Richmond, Virginia, a non-profit whose mission is to make art and careers, in creative industries accessible to all.

I'm joined with Kenda Sutton-El, executive director of Birth in Color, and Morgan Taylor, co-founder and co-host of the digital platform, "Moms Actually."

Welcome to you both and thank you for joining us for "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

Ladies, it's so good to sit down with you all, and especially as we think about the topic of Black mothering, I really wanna start with you and your experiences.

And so, think about yourselves as mothers, whether for your own children in the community, in our sister circles.

What prompted your passion and your purpose for the communities that you're currently building?

>>So, I've been in the mom game for quite some time now.

My oldest, she is 11 years old, and when I first became a mom, I became a mom very young, so, I was, kind of, like, thrown into it.

I was 20 years old.

>>Wow.

>>And I was doing all the things of, you know, what I knew best, but I still didn't have a whole lot of resources.

I remember reading that, "What to Expect When You're Expecting" book.

That has been- >>It's still out there.

>>Yes, that has really like gone from generation to generation.

But, as you know, as time goes on, some of that stuff is just so outdated.

>>Yeah.

>>But I figured it out, and, you know, with the help of my mom and grandma, and all of those things.

Then I became a mom of three.

And at my third pregnancy, I really thought like motherhood was on lock, like I thought that I had it.

>>You had it all together.

>>I thought I knew what I was doing, and my third child really threw me for a whole loop.

I ended up with postpartum depression.

I ended up just really struggling in general on the postpartum side.

And so, I started to recognize that the more and more I looked for resources, the more I looked for books, and articles, and just all the things.

There was not a lot out there, and if there were, there was nothing that helped me to say, "Oh, my gosh, this person looks like me.

They are going through some of the same things as me and I can really relate."

I really searched high and low, and I could not find a Brown woman that said, "Oh my gosh, I'm also going through postpartum.

This is what I had, you know, to do, to get through it."

And then when you go to the doctor, they give you a little sheet of paper, and tell you to, you know, do this questionnaire, if you will.

And I just started to say, "Nobody should have to go through this alone."

>>Yes.

>>There should be more out there, there should be more resources, there should be more opportunity to say, "Me too."

And so, that's really what made my passion for all of this happen, because I realized that moms are just women that have to go through all of this, and we need a space that's safe.

And that is pretty much what prompted all of this.

>>Yeah.

>>Yeah.

>>Wow, what about you, Kenda?

>>So for me it was slightly different.

My whole family is in healthcare, so we are trained like, "Hey, now these are the things that you actually do," especially with like my great-grandmother, my mother, I was the neighborhood daycare.

>>Yes.

(laughing) >>So everybody would bring their child, and I would watch 'em, and stuff like that.

But what happened was my friends started to become pregnant when I was in college.

None of them knew anything.

And I was like, "So your doctor didn't tell you that this is what you're supposed to look out for?"

So, they had no clue.

So, then I started being like, "Okay, so I'm gonna be a doula for you," because I knew what doulas were back then, but they were actually called birth sisters.

And so, that's when I was like, "Okay, I am gonna do this work."

And I just continued to assist like all friends, and then their friends would reach out to me, and that's how it started.

But then when Birth in Color was launched, it was because the maternal mortality rate is so high.

Black women are three times more likely to die during childbirth, and no one is like listening to them or giving them resources.

And so, when you look at the actual data and statistics, you get to see that there's no socioeconomic status.

Black women are still being treated this way because Black women that have a college education are dying at a higher rate than white women with no high school diploma.

And so, when you look at that factor, it's like, "Okay, wait a minute, why aren't like Black women talking about this?

Why can't they find Black doulas?"

And so, that's what a lot of people said.

It was like, "We don't know where to actually find Black doulas.

We don't know where to find people who look like us."

So that's when I said, "Okay, let's create a central space where you actually get to see all of that, and you can reach out."

And so, that's really what just started the whole launch of Birth in Color, is to make sure that they knew where to go for resources, that doctors were actually listening to them, and their preconceived conceptions of what Black women, when they asked for different things, that's what actually launched it.

>>Wow.

I love how you all talked about very similar, but different ends of the spectrum, right.

And so, Morgan, for you literally, being a biological mom... >>Yes.

>>and the things that came up there.

But then, Kenda, I mean you were neighborhood mom, auntie, big sister, you know, and so, you think about, kind of, the journey of mothering, and what it looks like, whether you have children in your home or not, and just, kind of, how you show up for each other.

So I know you all shared what your passion and purpose was, but think about your sister circles.

And I'm curious about what moms or just sisters are saying about themselves, about the experience, about the community.

What are some things that you're hearing in those circles?

>>Well.

(laughing) >>That you can say now.

(laughing) >>A lot of times they don't know where to go to look for certain things.

A lot of the times it's, you know, in the Black family, we always keep things to ourselves.

>>Yeah.

>>So that's one of the things too.

It's like, "I'm going through this, but I don't feel comfortable telling anybody, because I've always been taught like, keep what's going on in your house in your house."

So that's one of the things.

And then also my sister's pregnancy was totally different from mine.

Like, I was prepared, I was ready to go, like labor was super easy.

Her on the other hand, 'cause she didn't listen, it was if she was like, "Well, I don't know, nobody told me."

And I'm like, "So, where were you when Mommy was telling us like, >>[Adrienne and Kenda] What to do?"

>>So, that is also something that we hear too.

It's like some people are prepared, some people are not.

Some people are asking their providers like, "Hey, what does this look like?"

They're not getting enough feedback.

They have questions.

They wanna know like, "Is this the real thing for Black women though?

Does Black women actually experience postpartum depression?"

So I was glad that Morgan actually brought that up, because a lot of times people think that it doesn't necessarily happen in our community for whatever reason.

>>Absolutely.

Absolutely.

>>And a lot of times, that's really what we're actually seeing and hearing.

>>Yes.

>>So making more of awareness so that people actually understand like, "No, this happens in our community as well."

>>Yeah, absolutely.

>>I agree, I think it's really important, because we, as like to your point of Black women, we are just taught to be strong.

We're taught to, you know, like keep it all in and move on.

You gotta press forward and all of these things.

And I think that is also what prompted me to be like, "Okay, wait, this doesn't have to be this way."

>>Correct.

>>And I think it's a cycle that just has to be broken, and that was one of my things too.

Especially when you finally do speak up, the amount of, "Me toos."

that happen are just insane.

So, I think the things that I hear constantly are like, they just weren't prepared for the after part.

You know, we read all the things, and I think even when you're reading, when it comes to your pregnancy, all the apps, and all the things, they're talking about the baby.

>>Yeah.

>>They're talking about where you are in your stage of pregnancy, and what's happening with the baby.

It doesn't really focus too much on what's happening with you, and your body, and your mind, and all of the things.

And so, I think because the baby is the focus at all times, especially even afterwards, like you have all these mom blogs that are, "How do you change the diaper?"

and "How to make sure," "How to sleep."

Like, all these things are still baby focused.

And so, no one is really talking about, "But what about the mother? "

And so, all of the people that I talk to, they're like, "But nobody really prepared me for like, what is happening in my body, what is happening in my mind, how I'm not gonna sleep that much anymore, and how do I even cope from that?"

Not to mention your sisters in your village sometimes are the first ones to go, because, you know, you don't know whether you're coming or going after birth.

So it's sometimes hard to even say, or have those friends, or wanna go, because your life just looks totally different.

>>It changes, yeah.

>>So, one of the things that you said was people don't know where to...

They talk about pregnancy, and like the baby's perspective, but no one is talking about the mom's perspective.

So one of the things that I do as a doula is I tell them like, "Now, after you have your baby and all the family wants to come over, what job, what role are you actually doing?"

Why are you coming over to my house?

Don't call my phone and say, "How is the baby actually doing?"

>>Yes.

>>How are you?

>>Ask me how am I doing?

Ask my partner, how are they doing?

And then ask about the baby, because my mental health actually matters as well.

>>Absolutely.

>>Yeah, I love that.

And you both are making such significant points.

We're just often not centered in this deep amazing experience that we have.

I think about how much more I respected my mom and my aunts, once I, you know, kind of gave birth to my own daughter and had that experience, things I wouldn't know to ask, right?

>>Right.

>>I'm wondering, "Have I been a great friend?

And my sisters who've had children become, sometimes you just don't know what to ask and what it looks like.

Morgan, I wanna hop to you because I think you've shared some of the topics that you discussed through Moms Actually... >>Yes.

>>which is an amazing digital platform.

But just share a little bit more about Moms Actually, and what you all do.

>>Yeah, so Moms Actually has been really, really amazing, it's been an incredible journey so far.

So, I have actually my own platform as well, by myself, called Millennial Moms Club, which was birthed out of my postpartum depression.

So I started it right after that, because I was like, "We need a space."

>>Yes.

>>So, I started it after that, and then last year actually, I met my now business partner and co-host.

She saw that I had a platform for mothers, and she was wanting to start one.

And we just decided to come together and start the full digital portion of it, of the talks and conversations, because that is really how, you know, you start to bring awareness to this type of thing, is conversations.

So that's really our big goal right now, and to bridge the gap, because a lot of people, they see people all around and they follow, you know, people that they've maybe never met or maybe even admire, and not recognize that we're going through the same things.

So, given that space, I think has been just an incredible, incredible time.

And when I started Millennial Moms Club, I was doing conversations.

I had this thing called, "Mask Off Monday" that I used to do every Monday, I just hopped on IG Live with different moms.

And I knew I wanted to have conversations, I just didn't know to what extent this would bring.

So I'm just grateful that I've been able to do something like this.

>>Yeah.

And tell me more.

So, with Moms Actually, like, how regular are the podcasts?

Do you all do any in-person gatherings?

>>We have eight episodes a season.

>>Okay.

>>At this point we will just have wrapped our third season, so, we are trucking along.

It's been really really cool.

I'm just excited.

>>We've got to check it out.

>>Yeah, definitely check it out.

>>Kenda, Birth in Color, tell us more about it.

What I'll say before you jump in is that I love how you really have kind of grown to this systemic approach with the work that you're doing, but tell anyone who doesn't know anything about Birth in Color, what you all do.

>>For the most part, we're a community-based organization, non-profit that raises awareness to just birthing people and making sure that they have cultural humility care.

We train healthcare providers and racial bias training.

We make sure that the dads are a part of the journey as well, because we don't ever want them to not feel comfortable with asking questions to the healthcare providers as well.

We have a doula collective, we work on policy and legislation when it comes to maternal health.

So, that's really our focus is working on decreasing maternal mortality outcomes for Black women and people of color as well.

>>One thing, and I know we've talked a bit about, just mental health and just health in general, you've got a Black Maternal Health Week, right?

What does that look like for someone who's never experienced it before?

>>So, we start out with community baby showers throughout the whole entire Virginia.

We have a summit that's a day long where we have different keynote speakers, healthcare providers are in the room, community is also in the room, 'cause it's important for the community to understand what healthcare providers are saying, and healthcare providers to understand what community is actually saying.

And then we just really have a good time and just raise awareness to like pregnancy and joy as well.

So that's really what Black Maternal Health Week is always about, is talking about the maternal mortality rates, but also bringing joy to it to say like, "No, if you're actually prepared for pregnancy, and you have people that can advocate for you in that space, there's no reason why you should fear childbirth, it's just making sure that they're actually equipped."

>>Yep, and a large part of what you do is even educating some of these policy makers, right?

>>Yes.

>>About some of the challenges.

And you are statewide, or are you national yet?

Are you doing- >>We're statewide right now.

>>Okay, okay.

You see me putting that on you, right?

>>Yes, so we do have some doulas that are in Maryland.

>>Okay.

>>But as far as like the work, we are really just focusing on Virginia.

>>Kenda, for you, with what you see on the ground with parents and mothers, and how you're moving that to policy.

Morgan, for you, for what you're hearing amongst sister circles, and, you know, how do you all decide what you're going to include, say in your podcast, you know, conversations that you're gonna have with policymakers.

Like, what does that process look like to making sure that the voices of the parents and the mothers are really heard through the outlets and platforms that you all work with?

>>I would say community conversations.

That's one of the most important things.

So we host like panel discussions where we create safe spaces to say like, "What are you guys seeing?

What do you guys want?

What are you looking for?"

Because I don't ever wanna speak for the community.

I wanna make sure that we're always using their voice to advocate for what we actually want.

So that's one of the most important pieces is like raising awareness to the issue to make sure that they understand what's actually happening, and then also making sure that we're always keeping their voice at the forefront of everything that we actually do.

>>I'm always paying attention to how they respond to episodes, how they respond to things that I post or, you know, or even questions, 'cause I get a lot of questions all the time.

And so, if there's something that is repetitive, then I am definitely taking note of that, because the whole point is, "Okay, what is the thing?

What's the pain point?

What's the problem?"

>>Absolutely.

I wanna switch gears a bit, because, again, we know it's passion work, we know it's purpose work, but oftentimes with that, challenges still come about.

>>Oh, yeah.

>>What have been some challenges that you all have kind of faced in your work or in your community building that we can learn from?

>>The mom guilt.

So, a lot of times when you are building a business, or a brand, and you're still, you know, juggling parenting, you're still juggling your kids, and I have three.

So, it takes a lot of work, it takes a lot of time and effort.

And I also never want to, because my job is talking about being a mother, I never want my kids to look at what I do and what I say, and say, "Well you don't do that at home."

So I always wanna make sure that I'm very, very true to what I'm doing.

And with that, that means that I have to be even more serious about my boundaries and how I work.

So, I think that can become a challenge at times, because there are things that I have to get done.

>>Yes.

>>But then there are things that I have to get done with motherhood as well.

And so, being able to really just have a great balance and taking care of myself, one of the things that I'm huge, huge, huge on is self-care.

>>Yeah.

>>Self-care is definitely important, boundaries are really, really important.

So I'm always educating people.

I'm like, "We have boundaries in place for this reason.

Because just like you get time to like actually check out, we wanna be able to check out."

Because if we're constantly going, that's when the burnout comes.

>>Yep.

>>Absolutely.

>>And that's why a lot of people who have a purpose and start like different platforms and different things to raise awareness, they get burnt out, and they stop.

So making sure that people understand, like, "Yeah, you're good to see us, we've raised an awareness, we wanna make sure that you're well taken care of.

But also I need time to work on me, and make sure that I'm taken care of, and my children are taken care of."

>>So we talked about challenges.

I want you all to gloat a bit.

You know, think about things you're feeling really good about in the work that you're doing, or even things that you're seeing that's rising up from parents, but highlight some of those things.

>>I really have come to terms with the fact that like my voice is needed.

Before I started The Millennial Moms Club, I searched high and low, like, I searched for a long time.

And I could not find, not a blog, not a, you know, visual platform of a Black mom, talking about all the things.

And I feel like the fact that I stepped out there and did it, and now am like really walking in it, is something so amazing, because now there are so many other moms that are talking and speaking their truth.

And so, to see something that I like took, kind of, a risk on, to see it, kind of, just blow up and have such an impact on so many women, I think has been amazing to see people that are just comfortable and really talking about what they're going through and not feeling the shame, because, to your point, I think there's a shame that comes up when you're talking about the challenges that you have in motherhood, or in womanhood.

You wanna keep it to yourself, because that's what we were taught to do.

>>Yeah.

>>But to say I'm having a hard day, and to like actually just be out there to do it, has been so beautiful to see, to just see that community rise up, and to know that I had a huge impact in starting something like that, I think is so amazing to see the amount of women that we're helping now.

>>One of the biggest things for me is, just taking Birth in Color to where we just started with like our own money.

>>Yeah.

>>And to take it from, because this is our fifth year.

>>Okay.

>>And so to like, look at how far we've grown and how we like started in Richmond, and now we're across the entire state of Virginia, and then also the Medicaid reimbursement for Virginia.

Because we was the fourth state to actually implement it, and at that time, we had the highest reimbursement rate when it came to doulas.

And everyone studied the Virginia Plan that we all collectively worked together on.

But also, one of my biggest projects that people don't know is the dads.

Like, I actually love my dad.

>>Awesome.

>>Yes.

>>And so, to hear the dad say like, "Listen, I did not wanna ask a question to those providers, so had you not had the dad's workshop, and gave me a space that's just for fathers to ask whatever questions they want to, and not really make them feel any type of way, for asking those questions or saying like, 'You don't know that?'"

Because a lot of times that, we talk about Black women not being prepared, Black men want to be in the lives also.

But they don't know what questions to ask, 'cause they always feel like, "I can't ask a question."

And then to see them catch their own babies, and do skin-to-skin, and be bonded, it's like the best feeling ever to just sit there and watch it, and then hear the stories.

It's like, "Okay, this is why I do this work," and that's really what makes us happy.

>>So we often talk about parents being partners, parents being the first teacher that a child has.

And so I'm curious, what have you all taught your young people that you would like to share?

>>There's so much.

(laughing) >>Right.

>>Man.

I think one of the things that I say, "It's not what's taught, it's caught."

And so, I am really, really big on just showing my kids what it means to like, live.

Do you know what I mean?

>>Yeah.

>>I think it's easy to say, easy to correct, easy to guide.

>>Yeah.

>>But I think I am the teacher in how I act on what I'm saying.

Because I never wanna be a mom that's like, "Do what I say, not as I do."

>>That's right.

>>And so, my teaching truly is living it out.

And so, I noticed that with my children, is a lot of the things that I've said, or a lot of things I've done that I've not necessarily said, I'll see them doing it.

And it's because they're watching me, they're taking it in.

And so, I would say that to parents who are watching this, maybe not focusing so much on what you're saying, but really what you're doing, and making sure that it's lining up, because it's so easy to have a sit down conversation with your kid, and, you know, tell them the do's and don'ts, and all of that.

But a lot of times that's going right over their head anyway.

>>I love that.

>>One of the things for me is, I always teach my children is to never allow anyone to silence them.

Ask questions, don't ever feel like it's a question that is stupid.

That's one of the best things I've ever been able to teach them, because if they feel in a certain type of way, they're gonna express it.

And so, I take pride in that.

>>Yeah.

>>Absolutely, absolutely.

A big thank you.

I mean, thank you all for being change makers, for changing the narrative, for holding space, not only for Black mothers and for Black children, for being in the room with policy makers, with making such an imprint on social media.

>>Yeah.

>>And just thank you all for joining the conversation, sharing so much of what you do with the audience as well.

And I'm looking forward to see how your work blossoms.

>>Thank you so much for having us.

>>Thank you.

(gentle upbeat music) And now we turn our attention to educational systems.

How are leaders and families gaining an understanding of equity-based learning, and leaning into its impact on Black and diverse students?

We're taking a detailed look at advocacy from both parents and educators to create safe, reflective, and responsive learning environments.

Let's welcome Dr. Nyah Hamlett, superintendent of Chapel Hill-Carrboro City Schools in North Carolina.

And Mr. Pierre Greene, founder of Greener Pastures.

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

>>Thank you for having us.

>>Awesome.

So we're gonna jump right in.

Love you all's body of work and just your commitment, personally, as parents, and even as educators, to educational equity.

Talk to us about where that commitment birthed for you all.

>>For me, it really started when I was in high school.

I always had this thing for advocating for other people.

And my mom would tell you, I got in trouble many times advocating for other people.

And so, it really started with seeing students with disabilities playing basketball, which is a sport I love.

And just really wanting to advocate for them.

And then I think as I got older, and just being in college, and thinking about what I wanted to do with my life.

>>Yeah.

>>It was really interesting, because I started to see, you know, educators, or hear educators refer to students as "the apartment kids," or "those kids."

>>Right.

>>And something clicked for me where I, you know, thought to myself, "They're talking about me."

>>Yeah.

>>You know, I grew up in a single parent household in apartments, you know, in an apartment complex.

And I've always just really had a passion for making sure that people don't, or educators don't judge students by their circumstances.

>>Yeah.

>>And really hone in on their potential rather than where they come from, or their zip code, or their socioeconomic status.

>>Hmm.

How about you, Pierre?

>>For me, being a former student athlete in high school, in college, I always knew the importance of education.

But it wasn't until I became a parent, and saw my son who's considered gifted, twice-exceptional, meaning he tested high in reading and math, but also has a learning disability.

And to combat some of the negative messages that he was getting, it was like, it birthed something in me that I did not know was there.

And it's something that's gonna be a part of me forever.

>>I'm curious, as you talk about where it came from, high school, I can see you advocating for everyone around.

Where has that taken you?

So talk about your journey, what you currently do, what you've done in connection to education and equity.

>>I'll start with education.

Well, we started a non-profit, Greener Pastures Foundation, my wife and I.

And the purpose of the non-profit is to advocate for families and students to have 504s and IEPs.

Because what we realized, a lot of the parents just did not understand their rights.

They had no clue.

And so for us, upon doing our research, and talking to other families in the community, we realized that our story was not different, but no one had an outlet or a voice that understood where they were coming from.

And so, that's the work that we're doing today, is advocating for families in the school systems to give the kids a fair chance at a equitable education.

>>And so, essentially right, it's taking your lived experience, the good, bad, and different, and helping others to create that platform to really understand that process.

>>Absolutely.

>>Hmm.

What about you, Nyah?

>>So, for me, I started out as a special education teacher.

So as I said, you know, just really wanting to advocate for students with disabilities.

And I ended up working in a high school in Virginia Beach City Public Schools.

And I had 16, 17, 18 year old, mostly young Black men, or young Black students, who could not read.

And so, I went back to school to get a master's degree in reading, because I was like, "This is not it.

Like, I need to figure out how I can better support and help my students before it's too late."

And so, I went back and got that degree.

And I had other people pushing me and encouraging me to go into administration.

And then again, other people pushing me, seeing things in me that I didn't even see in myself, encouraging me to go and get a doctorate degree, which Pierre and his wife were an integral part of that.

And I did not want to be a superintendent.

But when I saw the leadership profile for Chapel Hill-Carrboro City Schools, everything that they said they wanted in a leader, aligned with my experiences and my passion.

So, here I am.

>>Wow.

The work of schools is so expansive now, I think, in these most recent years.

Talk about what equity means for you in your current role as superintendent.

>>Hmm, that's a great question.

So, there's this framework called, "Lead Simply."

It's a short little book, a short read, and it talks about modeling the behavior that you expect to see of others, connecting with those that you lead, and involving them as much as possible.

And that is essentially how I, you know, live out equity.

In my school district, we just launched a new strategic plan, and one of our core values is social justice action.

I would say that the biggest thing about the work that I do, is really about modeling what I expect of others.

And those core values are really an integral part of who I am as a person, who I am as a mother, who I am as a leader.

And when it comes to educational equity, I think about my own three children, who are growing up, and, you know, being educated in the public school system.

>>Pierre, I'm thinking about you and your experiences, and we'll get into where you're currently at as a homeschool dad.

But let's talk about some of your experiences being a parent in school systems.

>>I'm a product of public schools, so I always assume the school as being a safe space.

You send your kids there, they play, they have good friends, and the whole nine.

But when we went on this journey, going into some of these spaces with 10 people that are telling me about my son that I live with every day, that I know inside and out, was a little alarming.

And, you know, they were coming from a perspective of, "These are the kids that we've seen, and this is how they act, and this is what they do."

And so, for us it was building down those barriers, like, "Wait a minute, let's do our research."

It's a very daunting task to try and do the research, and figure out what are actually your rights.

And once we found that information, we felt more empowered.

We came from fear to empowerment, and that's where we're at right now.

And I would also also add this, we partner with the school systems.

We don't look at the school systems as an enemy.

They just may not be informed.

So, we are there to partner with them so we can help the child, because at the end of the day, it's all about the child, it's not about us.

It's about making sure that child has a fair chance to do whatever he or she is trying to do education wise.

>>Awesome.

>>I think that's a great point, because when you talk about, you're there to also educate, right?

And sometimes when you're, as educators, sitting around an IEP table, right, for a meeting, there's this air of like, "We are here to tell you, parent, what your child needs, and who your child is."

And I love that you all really advocate, and help other parents to advocate for themselves, do their own research, and to educate the educators, right?

>>Absolutely.

>>Yeah, so, I think for me it is again, just keeping my own children at the forefront of the decisions that I make.

I think in the educational system, one of the things that, and Pierre talked about this, kind of, breaking down those barriers.

We know that systemic racism exists in schools.

We know that there are biases in humans, right?

We know that there are things that have to be done in order for our Black and Brown children, our multilingual learners, our students with disabilities, those are things that have to be done in order for them to thrive and grow.

And it starts with the advocacy and the partnership between educators and parents.

Because parents are children's first educator.

>>Their first teacher.

>>Right, their first teacher.

Yeah.

>>Absolutely.

Really, it's this kind of dual framework and shift that we have to make, right?

It's educators, and then also parents and families, and what does it look like to walk alongside?

So, Pierre, you've got a lot of things you can consider yourself as, but I love that you can now say that you are a homeschool dad.

Did you ever think that you would be, and what has the experience been like for you?

>>If you'd have told me 15 years ago, "You're gonna be a homeschool dad," I would have said you were crazy.

(group laughing) First of all.

>>Right.

>>It's been amazing.

And the part about it that's been amazing is I'm able to educate my kids.

And when they get it, and you see it on their face, and their little eyes, and they light up, because they get it, that's what it's about, you know, as parents, we have to step to the forefront, and be able to educate our kids.

We can't rely on the school system to do all the heavy lifting.

We have to do our part.

And so, it's been amazing.

My kids, I was apprehensive, especially with my oldest, I was like, you know, "I remember my high school experience."

I'm like, "I don't wanna rob him," but what I had to realize is my high school experience is completely different, it doesn't even exist today.

>>Yeah, that's right.

>>And so, with that being said, I have old information.

And so, it's been amazing just to spend time with them, because I realize as they mature and move out my house, I only have a limited amount of time to be able to have that influence over them.

And so, it's great to influence what they're reading, what they're learning, and so forth.

>>Absolutely.

It's interesting because I think we've seen a shift where families are just exploring more of what the options are, right?

Curious about what you and your family, what were the steps in the process?

>>First of all, you have to get over yourself.

You have to realize that you are qualified to teach, because that's the first thing that comes into your mind, "Can I do this?"

>>Can I do this?

>>I do not want to mess with my kids.

I don't want my kids to have to go to therapy because of me.

>>That's right.

(laughing) >>So once you get over yourself, then you have to do your research, look at your district, and find out, what are the rules?

And then I would say, talk to the homeschool community.

We interviewed tons of family that were homeschooling, because it was this stigma that homeschool kids were antisocial, they didn't have the interpersonal skills.

And what we found is the complete opposite.

These are normal kids, just like mine and normal families.

And so, once we did the research, then you have to research what type of curriculum you want to be able to provide for them.

And then you have to work with the district to file all the correct paperwork.

And once you do those things, it's on you.

>>Yeah, yeah.

When you say that, I'm curious, is there still some connection to the school district that you're in as you're going down this homeschool path?

>>Annually, we have to send in the report that's saying, "Hey, we're homeschooling," as well as test results.

>>Okay.

Okay.

>>And that's all that's required.

>>Okay, okay.

So you mentioned you've got three sons.

And I had the privilege of reading an article that your oldest son, Ethan, wrote.

And it first was amazing to hear about, he talked about his entire experience from public school, and then transitioning out, even some of the things he was unsure about.

But something that really stood out to me was his connection to freedom, the freedom that he had, in his day, in his schedule, to learn what he did, to read what he did.

Talk about that from a parent perspective, some of the freedom you've seen, not just in Ethan, but in your sons now being homeschooled.

>>Absolutely.

One of the greatest benefits is that your education track is a blank canvas.

So you're able to plug in what your kids' interests are.

And for Ethan, he has a freedom to, if he wants to look at a certain book, he can do it.

If we want to take a field trip to a museum, we don't have to get approval from, you know, the principal to say, we can do these things.

And so for him, I've seen how relaxed he is.

It's a calmness about his education.

It's excitement, you know, and he's seeing how, what he's learning, he can apply it to his day-to-day life.

You know, he's a bright kid, so he would say, "Well, Dad, why do I need that?

I don't plan on being X."

And so, now we're able to gear his curriculum to the things that really feeds him.

>>Yeah.

>>Something that really speaks to his why.

Now, let's be clear, we still do the basics, we do the math, the reading, the English, and the sciences, and history, because that's important.

But photography, coding, you know, things like that, that he's able to do.

So for us, this has been a blank canvas, and he feels safe and comfortable to be able to learn at his pace.

Not at the pace of a system, but something that's really gonna feed him, and make him the best person he could possibly be.

>>Wow.

You know, we're really, you know, in this discussion, thinking about how some families have leaned out a bit to do that, to be innovative, and to create.

But it's also thinking about parents and families who've leaned in, you know.

And so, Nyah, I would imagine just where you sit as superintendent, you hear all of the voices, whether students, families, staff, you know, and then the opportunity is how to, kind of, guide that voice in an equity centered way.

If you could talk about just intentionality and support provided for Black children and families, they may not often see themselves in school leadership, or even in curriculum.

How do you overcome what seems like an obstacle, and really, kind of, train your teams, and your staff around making some of those opportunities available?

>>Yeah, again, I really believe in modeling what I expect to see of others.

But I also believe in showing up as my authentic self.

And so, I am very intentional about the manner in which I show up with families, and students, and staff.

So, I'll give you a few examples.

We've established a Student Equity and Empathy Ambassador program.

And so, I have 40 high school students that I meet with three to four times a year, who advised me on policy recommendations for the school board, who advised me on, you know, what is needed when it comes to mental health services and supports in our schools, who advised me on what it means to feel connected to each other, as peers, but also to the adults who are, you know, there to serve and support them.

And those are some fearless, fierce young people.

>>Sure they say what's on their mind.

>>Absolutely.

(Adrienne laughing) And they've created change.

You know, for example, we, in North Carolina, by law, you have to establish class rank in schools.

And so, our students heavily advocated against that.

And so, we said, "Well, here's what we can do, right?

Here's where we're bound with the legislation, but here's what we can do."

And they advocated, and we ended up moving to the Latin honors system, and moving away from valedictorian designation.

>>Wow.

>>They've changed our grading policy, they've changed our homework policy.

>>Okay.

>>All through the work that have come from young people.

So I really believe in giving young people a voice, and bringing their voice to the decision-making table.

And then, as it relates to parents in the community, my favorite thing to do, my chief communications officer, and a couple of other people, go into neighborhoods, we call it the Superintendent's Neighborhood Walk and Talks.

I don't show up like this.

Sometimes I have on a hoodie and I'm shooting hoops with students.

>>Yeah.

>>I don't have an agenda, I don't have a microphone, and we just go and connect with parents.

And you wouldn't believe the things that parents are willing to share when they're on their own turf.

>>Nyah, I'm curious, 'cause I'm thinking people are often asking, looking to see what you can do.

What do you often feel like you need from parents, and families, or community?

>>Hmm.

Patience.

(Nyah laughing) (Pierre laughing) I, you know, as Pierre talked about, you know, kind of, fighting from the outside in, I need patience and understanding from parents so that they can at some point trust me to fight from the inside out.

>>Yeah.

>>And so, a lot of that is centered around sharing openly and being vulnerable to say, you know, there are some systemic things that have to be completely demolished.

I know we use the term dismantle, but sometimes those things have to be completely demolished.

And parents who had negative experiences in schools themselves, or whose children are experiencing, you know, negative things in the school system, there's a element of trust that has to come into play, and that takes time.

>>That's right.

>>So that's why I say patience, and really, that neighborhood walk and talk I mentioned, we started in our public housing neighborhoods.

Now we go to any neighborhood, if people invite us, but we started in our public housing neighborhoods.

And just being able to have those conversations with parents to say again, "Here's what this is, also, here's what this is not."

And to be able to look somebody in the eyes and say, "I too am the mother of Black children, of two Black boys, of a daughter who's gifted with another child with an IUP, and another one who sits right there in the middle.

>>That's right.

>>So, I hear you, I see you, and work with me."

Right?

>>That's right.

>>But that takes time and that relationship building.

>>Absolutely, affirming in the moment.

>>Yeah.

>>I love that.

Pierre, I'm thinking about a counter thought for you.

I know you loosely talked about Greener Pastures, but how have you showed up to work with school systems, right.

To be a partner?

Like what does that look like for you as from a parent perspective?

>>From a parent perspective, being able to offer some type of training, whether that's a Zoom, or in person at the end of a school assembly, a PTA meeting where we talk about, "These are your rights.

This is some of the things you need to look at."

And just really giving them resources.

Because I think in today's era, technology is at all our fingertips.

So, if they know where to go, they can find it, and just empower them.

"Hey, it's okay to ask questions," because that's what it really comes down to.

We have a lot of bright parents and families in our communities.

They're just afraid to ask the tough questions.

>>Yeah.

>>Afraid that if I ask this question, "How is my kid gonna be treated?

Or if I don't have a degree."

Because that's another thing, it's this assumption that everyone has degrees.

Did you know 38% of the people in the United States only, have degrees?

So the average person doesn't have a college education.

Now we're sitting up here with a ton of masters, and so forth, but that's not the normal thing.

So the parents that we're speaking to and educating in our school systems, have never went this far in education.

>>Yeah.

>>And so, they bring their own baggage.

>>Yeah.

>>Their own triggers.

And so, just really educating them, showing them that, "Hey, this is a safe space."

>>Yeah, yeah.

You know, the uncomfortability of having a difficult conversation, even if it's about your child, the kind of discomfort that some parents may feel just going into a school that maybe generations have been in, right, and maybe they weren't treated as well.

How do you help someone, or how do you help families to even overcome something that's been there maybe systemically for generations, right?

Like, what does that look like for you all in your work?

>>I would say it's incumbent upon school systems to meet people where they are.

>>Yeah, that's right.

>>So, when I hear that, the first thing I think about is, "Okay, so then how can we create a space where we're showing up at those sporting events... >>That's right.

>>put up a tent, and have parent conferences there.

>>That's right.

Right, so how can we do things differently?

And I think it is the responsibility of not just the parents, but also the school system to, like I said, show up and kind of meet people where they are.

And I think that's what's been missing for so long.

I also wanted to mention, and you were talking about 38% of people who don't have degrees in my community- >>They do have degrees.

>>Oh, they do, they do.

>>Just 38%.

>>Okay, so in my community, in Chapel Hill-Carrboro, we're right in the research triangle area of North Carolina.

And 14% of our community have doctorate degrees, which is the second highest in the country.

>>Wow.

>>So I have a very educated and engaged community, but to your point, we also have many families, particularly Black families, who grew up, were born, raised in Chapel Hill.

>>That's right.

>>And, you know, so being able to bridge that gap, and to show the natives of Chapel Hill that this is their home, right?

>>That's right.

>>And we have a responsibility to advocate for them to, you know, support them, to show up at the sporting events, or show up in their neighborhoods, so that they know that we value them, and their children, and, you know, that we want the best for their children.

>>Yeah, yeah, it's collective work, right?

>>Yes.

>>It's the parents, and the community, and the external tribe, and the systems all working together to better support our young kids.

What have you all been most inspired by, when you think about some of the student voices that you've surrounded yourself with, what is inspiring you that they're sharing in conversation?

What's on their mind?

What's motivating you or inspiring you?

(all laughing) >>I would say, just again, listening to my Equity at Empathy ambassadors, you know?

I mean, just coming out of the pandemic and being in person, you know, we wanted to talk about school safety.

When I say we, the adults.

>>Yes.

>>We wanted to talk about school safety, and there was this debate going on in my school district about school resource officers.

And those students said, "You know what it means to be safe in schools, is for us to feel connected and be emotionally safe."

So they helped us to, kind of, change the trajectory, and that conversation, and stop focusing on policing schools.

>>That's right.

>>And they said, "We need mental health support."

And so, being able to have those conversations with young people and for them to guide us, I say all the time to my team, my leadership team, "We can argue all day about data.

We can argue all day with each other, but the one thing we cannot argue with is student voice."

And so, another thing I tell them is, you know, when adult issues start to get in the way of what children need, then that's when I have an issue.

>>That's right.

>>Right.

And so, hearing from our students about what they need, inspires me every single day.

And then I bring that back to the adults who wanna focus on adult issues.

>>Yes.

>>And say, "But this is what our students said."

>>Yes.

>>Right?

>>That's a great point.

For me, it's the freedom that the kids are expressing what they're learning, the things that really feed them, you know.

It's this concept that this generation does not care, or not paying attention.

They are paying attention.

>>Yes, indeed.

>>They're listening, they research everything.

Where we had encyclopedias, and I'm probably dating myself, (group laughing) they have Google.

>>That's right.

What does a day look like for your kids, Pierre?

If there is a day, what is that?

>>A typical day learning.

So, my middle son, he's a morning person, so he wants to learn first thing in the morning, and be done, okay?

So, for him, we may start at 9:30 AM, he'll do some lessons to typically around 12:00 PM, 12:30 PM, then he's pretty much done.

My oldest, he wants to start in the evening.

He's a teenager, okay.

>>I get that.

So, he will start in the evening, and he likes to work by himself.

And so, the interesting thing about that is, he'll only reach out if he needs assistance.

But he'll submit everything, do everything he's supposed to, and then we'll talk about it, their lessons and things like that.

If certain days we have field trips, typically on Fridays, we'll do some type of museum, some type of activity that they want to do.

And so, that's pretty much a typical day.

No alarm clocks, which is different.

They eat a lot when they're at home though... >>Oh.

>>to be clear about that.

>>Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.

I'm thinking about as you talk about, what the day looks like, and that flexibility, parents who, "Man, homeschooling sounds really good, but I work one or two jobs."

And the ability, like, talk about that, you know, for some folks who might see it even as an obstacle to be able to do, and to have this environment for their students.

>>Well, it's a privilege, just to be honest with you.

>>That's right.

>>It's a privilege to be able to control my schedule during the day where I can manipulate where I need to be at certain times.

And my wife has the same type of schedule.

So it is a certain level of privilege.

>>Yeah.

>>And if you don't have that privilege, a lot of parents have to settle, I hate to use the word settle, but they have to go- >>Make different choices.

>>Absolutely, use different choices.

So for us, it is the privilege.

And I'm appreciative of the privilege, I'm not gonna run away from it.

I've worked hard to be able to do these things.

>>Yes, indeed.

>>So... >>And aren't there some cooperatives, right?

>>Absolutely.

>>So where, you know, I think some people think traditionally the child is at home in their room homeschooling.

But it's often out and about, maybe with- >>Absolutely.

>>Talk about that.

>>We're part of a co-op where we meet three days a week.

>>Okay.

>>And it's 80 families.

>>Wow.

>>Wow.

>>80 families, from kindergarten all the way to high school.

>>Wow.

>>And they have a curriculum from... homeschool does not start early.

So, everything starts around 10:00 AM, and we'll run to about three o'clock, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

And the kids get interactions, they have friends, it's just like being in a regular school system.

The teachers are all educated.

Many of them are former teachers that left the system that are homeschooling their kids, and teaching at the co-ops.

>>Wow.

>>And so, another thing, we're able to partner with different co-ops.

So, my son is learning Spanish.

Well, he may not wanna do Spanish next year, but this other co-op may be teaching Arab, well, he can sit in those courses.

>>Wow.

>>So it works out great.

>>They have some choice there.

>>Absolutely.

>>You mentioned privilege, and I wanna correlate that back to how do you all think just certain levels of privilege and confidence to even advocate on behalf of your children in educational settings.

Have you all noticed a correlation there?

I'm thinking about your school district as well, and the high rates of doctors.

Just what have you all seen as far as that connection, and advocacy for young people when it comes to really sharing and knowing the value in their voice.

>>Privilege equals resources.

At the end of the day, if we scale everything back, the more privileges you have, the more resources you have.

And so what we've found in a lot of these privileged communities, they share within their communities.

They share with the people that look like them, that visit the same places that they do.

And so what I've seen is that, in our co-op, for example, it's typically a two parent households, typically people who have multiple degrees, and so, it is a certain level of privilege.

And so, when you get outside that community and some parents that are trying to homeschool, if they don't have the resources, they have to make different options, like we just said.

So it comes down to resources, that's what it equals at the end of the day.

>>Yeah, yeah.

>>I would say, similarly, you know, and I have this conversation, my husband and I do, with our children often, and remind them of how blessed they are.

>>Yes, that's right.

>>And how many options they have.

>>Absolutely.

>>Yeah.

>>And then we also, Pierre talked a bit about how there's that freedom with homeschooling.

Of course, in a school system, you are bound by curriculum, you are bound by state standards, you are bound by pacing guides.

And so as a parent, one of the things that my husband and I are really adamant about is controlling what our children learn when they're at home, and making those connections to what they're learning in school.

And so, some of that is, I think, connected to, you know, having the education, but also the resources to be able to expand our own children's learning opportunities.

So for example, during the pandemic, we would do something called Melanin Mondays with our children.

And we would watch a movie like, "Remember the Titans," 'cause our kids love sports, or, you know, something that would help them to connect with and learn more about race relations, and because we really want them to be proud of who they are as Black children.

>>Yeah.

>>And so, that's just one example, but we also try to incorporate social justice standards into the education of our own children at home.

>>Yeah.

>>Right, and so, I couldn't agree with Pierre more.

It's really about boiling down to the resources that you have, and those resources creating options.

>>As we kind of wrap up our conversation, what words of advice, what would you say to an educator who's figuring it out, a parent who's figuring it out, what lessons have you gleaned along your journey as folks are really trying to figure out how to best center equity for students in their lives?

>>For me, it's one word, actually, commitment.

You have to be committed to the process.

As a homeschool dad, there's times where you don't want to do it.

It's like, "Ah!"

But you realize that it's bigger than you.

And so, you have to stay consistent, and committed to the process, and do your research.

If you do those three things, you gonna have some bumps in the road.

>>Naturally.

>>But it'll be well worth it at the end of the day.

>>Awesome.

>>I would just say, going back to that word, authenticity, for educators, be in a place where you can show up as your authentic self, and be unapologetic about your core values, and your charge to serve children, and create that affirming environment for all children.

>>I love it.

Thank you all so much for the work that you do, not only in your professions, but just personally at home.

I know I can't wait to see what leadership looks like in a year or two when we look at our young people, our students, and our children, and what their lives will embody.

So, thank you all so much for your time.

We wanna thank you for joining us for this episode of "Racism: Challenging Perceptions."

And if you'd like to watch previous programs, please visit vpm.org/talk.

You will also be able to learn more about our panelists there.

Thank you.

(gentle uplifting music) >>Production funding for "Racism: Challenging Perceptions," is provided by Viewers Like You.

Thank you.

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